Interview with Dr. YONGGI CHO, the ex-Buddhist who now Pastors a church of 40,000 from Dedication Magazine November/December 1976
Interviewed by Wes Richards and Eric Lavender
By any standards Yonggi Cho is a remarkable servant of God. He is one of the key figures in the South Korean revival and leads one of the fastest growing churches in the world.
Just 15 years ago he pioneered the Full Gospel Central Church in the capital city of Seoul. Eight years later, in 1969, this church had grown from nothing to 16,000 members. Today the congregation is 40,000 strong and a gymnasium has been built to accommodate at least 10,000 extra converts expected next year.
The church is also establishing other churches throughout South Korea - at the rate of 100 a year - and has sent out 36 missionaries around the world. The annual income is about two million U.S. dollars and 80 workers are on the full time staff in Seoul. The deaconate numbers 2,300. Formidable figures in any language, but the man who directs this mammoth venture retains a keen sense of perspective and has an acute awareness of the Providence of God.
He recalls how little more than 21 years ago, as a staunch Buddhist, he was dying of TB. He was visited by a Christian young lady and was moved not by her words but by her tears whilst witnessing to him. Subsequently Yonggi Cho was not only born again but also healed. Now he says simply: "I think God specially raised me up to bring His healing mercies to my generation".
UNASSUMING
Interviewing Yonggi Cho - as colleague Eric Lavender and I were able to during the World Pentecostal Conference in London where he was a speaker - was a benediction. At 41 he is an unassuming man of deep insight, clear foresight and firm convictions born out of experience. And what's more he's not afraid to express them.
He spoke in depth about the need to mobilise the membership…of how his cell system of lay evangelism works. He stressed his leadership was purely spiritual and explained how he had so mastered the art of delegation that he can control the church with one phone call! He shared his views on the necessity for true Biblical preaching and revealed the part prayer and fasting and the ministry of the miraculous has played in the current move of the Spirit.
Advice to young ministers, tithing and how to deal with troublemaking members are other areas covered...often with flashes of humour. All in all it is an absorbing and immensely helpful interview which concludes with a vital message to the Church of Christ in Britain. (Ed.)
What is the secret of the success of the work in S. Korea?
S. Korea is enjoying a special visitation of the Holy Spirit in a sovereign way.
Have other factors, such as the uncertain political situation, played a part in people turning to God?
No, no, no.
What proportion, would you say, of the decisions that are recorded in your church become real converts?
I would say almost 100 per cent. Once they make the decision, our cell leaders visit them four, five, six…ten times. They keep on going and keep on going. We don't lose them.
How does the cell system operate?
It is quite simple. I divide the whole town into cells. We have seven large districts, and under them we have about 40 smaller districts, and under the 40 smaller districts we have got 1500 cells, and we mobilise lay people, according to the cells. One cell consists usually of eight, sometimes 15 to 20 families, and they are supposed to get together in their homes in turn, and have their prayer meeting and Bible instruction. Most new converts are won through the cells. And so the cell grows so fast, and when they grow to more than they can take care of, the cell splits.
What number do you split at?
I usually just ask them to go no larger than 15 families because you can't get them into the living room. So then the cell splits and they start another cell.
Is this something on the Ortiz line?
I don't agree…his way is like the Pope...but my way is that leaders have full freedom.
INITIATIVE
Who is in control of them?
I am but my ministry is spiritual leadership. Institutionally I delegate my power. The youth department, the Men's Fellowship, the Missionary department…they are all going by themselves. I just receive reports. That is my policy because if they lose initiative then they lose the desire to work. But if I have a loose line then they plan and they go out and they build and they are proud of it.
Who runs the home meetings?
A deacon or deaconess. They are common lawyers, technicians or housewives and so on. Every Wednesday I give special instructions by video-tape. My main job is giving them vision and motivating them strongly to work for the Lord. And so they go out and teach and win souls and get people healed and filled with the Holy Spirit, and then they split and it grows bigger and bigger.
Then they all come to the Sunday morning services. Of course, a certain number of cells are taken care of by my junior associates, and then a certain number of junior associates are taken care of by senior associates. So right now I have 60 associate full time ministers. Under them we have the 1500, but I can't exactly tell the number because the number is growing every day - cells are splitting almost every week, so I can't exactly quote the numbers. This year from January up until the time when I left, we had slightly more than 8,000 new converts added to our Church.
Do you mean baptised converts, or people who have just made decisions?
No, they are registered to our Church in Korea - we give them six months trial time. First they should come to church and be tried for three months, and if they keep on coming for three months then we give another three months. Then we baptise.
DISCIPLINE
How do you keep a check on the discipline of these cells? If a deacon was going off line doctrinally or morally, how would you keep a check on that?
Well that is the reason that we need organisation, you see. We have every kind of report system. And every week cells should report on the subject they taught, how many came, how many saved, how much was the offering. They are all sending it up to my office. Junior ministers are constantly watching over them, and there are about 10 to 20 juniors to a senior minister and I am over the senior. Every morning we have a ministry session from 9.00 to 9.30. We have devotional prayer together and then I will see the reports of the junior and senior men. If ever the spoilt egg happens then the junior minister goes and tries to deal with it. But if the junior minister fails then the senior minister goes. If the senior minister fails, and then I just go. And if I can't correct them, then off they go!
Do you find any problems of individuals who are trying to get power for themselves?
Amazingly, very few. When you don't give a job to them they might cause trouble, but when they have something to do, and you really motivate them, then they are rather sympathetic, because they themselves see in experience the difficulty in ministry. Many a time they come to me and they confess their sin, and they say "We have caused such a trouble to you, but when we took care of things we have had pain, and trouble…” So they become your friend rather than enemy.
PITFALLS
If they come to you with a plan for which you may see the pitfalls, do you still let them go on?
Surely - because they learn by the pitfalls. If they fail I just go there and I help them and I tell them, "You pay the heavy tuition now, so you must do in your way", because people learn by failure. So my feeling is that the leader is there to help other leaders to grow up. The leader is not there just to hold the thing down.
Do you interview every deacon before you appoint them, or do your associates?
Oh no, my junior and my senior associates do. I tell you with 2,300 deacons if they say hello in one street I can't recognise them! So I just give them the principle, and Junior and Senior get in touch.
How much of your time in an average week would you is given to talking to your co-workers?
Well, every morning I talk with my associates for some time, then I usually have the emergency cases. I am usually travelling outside the country for six months in a year, so I will be at home with my own church for six months. Even if I am away for six months, the church is built by itself, so it is self-propagating. And also, when you have a cell system then the new convert really stays.
People have basically two needs: one is that they want big things to happen - and they want to be part of and proud of the big things and yet still they want to have an intimate fellowship and care. If you don't meet these two desires you cannot build a church. If you just have a big church and they are just a number of heads they feel lost. But if you meet also the personal touch then they are coming and staying with you. So the only way to have bigger churches is having the cell system. If you do not have the cell system you can never have an intimate fellowship and you can never keep track of the people.
MOBILISE
Are you saying then that this cell system is a method anyone can adopt and see the same success that you have in South Korea?
Well, they can have quite an amount of success, because the secret is this mobilising. I have now, for example, more than 1500 unpaid associates, my main job is training the lay people and turning them out as lay ministers. Any country could be successful like this.
In Japan they say you could never have success: I just try to teach them along this line but they say, "Oh, that is working in Korea, but it would never work here". So I brought one minister to Korea and trained him and started him off among the Assemblies of God. In less than eight years his church, from 20 members, has grown to 500 members and that church became the largest church in Japan. And he is not the best preacher. So here you are applying the same system.
DELEGATION
How much of your time do you put in the work? Many pastors in Britain work themselves to death.
I tell you one thing: I have plenty of time because I delegate all of my work. I am not going out and making myself tired to death visiting homes and so on. I study, I pray and I only take the big things, you know. So, ministers, if you really want to be successful you should have more time to study and meditate and read for your message for Sunday morning. So to do that, one should trust to his fellow workers and delegate. I am here in Britain and I don't worry! Now since I have organised my church in such a way I can control my church by one telephone call. It is all delegated, so that is the secret.
PRAYER
How many hours a day, if we could ask you, do you give to prayer?
Well, on Saturday I just go out to the mountain and pray on the mountain, and I stay there and pray - from 12.00 till I get the anointing - till I get the assurance from God. Then every day I spend at least two hours reading, meditating and praying.
What sort of books do you read?
Well, I am reading vastly, but mostly I am reading those books which are helping me in my ministry…about church organisation and also devotional books. I am trying my best to find out the secret of success of other ministers.
PREACHING
Where do you think preaching comes into this matter of revival?
Well, the Bible says we should concentrate preaching about our Lord Jesus Christ and His salvation. Nowadays people are preaching too much about sociology and that sort of thing, and those sorts of things can never bring revival. We should concentrate on Jesus Christ. As for me, I am really dependent upon the Holy Spirit. To me the Holy Spirit is nearer to me than my wife. Oh, every moment while I preach I depend upon the Holy Spirit, because if anything is not produced by the Holy Spirit it is plastic…it’s useless.
What kind of teaching ministry goes on in your church? Do you have regular Bible studies?
My type of ministry is Bible. I am always carrying out expository sermons. It is very seldom I preach with topics: I take the Bible systematically and carry out expository preaching. For example, this year I expounded Revelation and Daniel - two books altogether - and I have already published the books which I preached. Every year we are going through books of the Bible.
When would this be - on a Sunday morning, or a mid-week?
The Sunday morning is a spiritual ministry, but Wednesday evening is the regular Bible Study. When five to 6,000 attend. Mostly we are giving Bible instruction through the cell meeting. We are going through Matthew to Revelation and from Genesis to Malachi. We write expository books and in every cell we are studying the Bible.
MIRACLES
What about the ministry of the miraculous? Of the people you have prayed for, what percentage roughly would you say receive a remarkable healing?
Well, in my church I now expect about 60 per cent, but when I come out to the evangelistic field I think about 20-30 per cent.
Has this always been a feature of your ministry?
My main calling is Divine Healing because I was raised up from my death-bed. I was suffering from tuberculosis, and I made a pledge before the Lord that if He would ever raise me up I would pray for the sick.
Have you always had this measure of success? Do you have a special gift?
I call my ministry as to 1 Cor. ch. 3 the gift of divine healing. But I just don't like to impose myself as a man who possesses the gift, because if I had the gift I could heal everybody. But I have only ministry of compassion - deep compassion for the sick, and I lay hands. And it is up to God to supply the gift.
BAPTISM
Do those who work with you possess this same quality in their ministry?
Well, it's a diverse kind of ministry, because one of my Senior associates has a tremendous ministry for the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. I could pray for people and very few of them receive the Baptism. But always 50-60 per cent get healed. But when my associate comes she seldom experiences a real amount of healing: but every one of them receives Baptism. So that is ministry. After a little while I was quite envious of her, but it is the Holy Spirit.
And you think every church ought to be structured on this basis?
I am sure, because we have the Holy Spirit present and He manifests Himself through different kinds of ministries.
CULTURE
What would you say if you were to evangelise in Britain? Would you make any changes to what you are doing in Korea?
Well, the Holy Spirit has His own tactics, you know, so if ever I were called to Great Britain I would stay here and fast and pray for about two or three months and wait upon the Lord, and I would learn the way of the Holy Spirit, because culture is different - the way of thinking is different - so since I made success in Korea that doesn't mean that I would make success in Great Britain. It would have to be from the Holy Spirit.
Do you think that we are too institutionally minded?
I think so. British people are also too intellectual.
What are your views about the British Pentecostal Movement? In the third generation - things can seem to get institutionally top heavy and people get more confidence in committees and councils. Do you think that this is a real danger here?
I think so, because the institution takes over and then they give all the power to the institution to make decisions, and its decision is not always led by the Holy Spirit. Democracy is not the way of the Holy Spirit - it should be Theocracy. So, the more loosely organised the better.
LOCAL CHURCH
Would you agree that the local church ought to be our emphasis?
I say so, because the local church is the answer. For example, we have had great meetings for Billy Graham I million people came - tremendous meetings. But what result did we get out of it? Not as much as we expected. Of course, that kind of big meeting has its own place of Christian demonstration to the world, but still the church is growing by the local church. The local church is the life-line of Christianity, and so local church should have more sovereign right and power. Headquarters should be something like fellowship: a policeman who guides, but if you are tightly organised, like Catholics, and head- quarters start commanding you, then the local church loses initiative and that is terrible.
REVIVAL
This is the fourth time that you have been to England now. Do you sense on this visit that there is an increased sense of expectancy. Do you think that there is revival on the way?
Surely. When I first came to England I prophesied, because at that time when I came people seemed to be complacent - so much so that I felt that God was going to send some jolting experience to Great Britain. And it is coming economically; Great Britain is suffering so people start praying now. I think that God loves this nation, so God tries to force people now to seek Him, or start kneeling down and praying. Now people have started praying and really praising.
With regard to fasting and praying: What would be the minimum period that you would say "for this period I'm going to seek God?"
Well, in Korea we have fasting and praying very very much. Most of the Christians, about 60 per cent of the 40,000, fast for at least five or six days a year. They go up to the prayer mountain - we have a special prayer mountain, and fast and pray.
You bought the mountain did you?
Yes. It is about 30 acres. I have built chapels there and a dormitory which accommodates about 300, and then catacombs have been dug all though the mountain. And they go up there and crawl into the catacomb and close themselves inside, then fast and pray.
FASTING
You would say that this is absolutely essential?
I would say so. Throughout the whole of the Old Testament, if you ever want to come to the Lord with real seriousness you should fast and pray. But fasting itself has no merit, it is seriousness of heart, you know.
Would you say that it is in these times especially where you have come to know the special plan for a situation, and how to deal with things?
Yes. I feel that nowadays people are expecting great things from the Lord without planting anything, and that is no good at all, because there is a certain law in God's Kingdom - "If you don't plant you can't reap."
In Britain there are very godly men, who are dubious about the Pentecostal blessing and so on and they are reaping in places better than the Pentecostal ministers. How do you assess that situation?
Well I will tell you one thing; the man with special capability would have done even greater with the power of the Holy Spirit.
SECOND COMING
On the question of the Lord's Return, do you believe that we are in the end days?
Very, very strongly. I think we have at the most between well, I'd say about 20 years I guess, because things are moving so fast. That is the reason that I build this big church. Many people really complained and said, "After your generation what is going to become of you?" " Why do you waste money?" I always say that if I don't use this money people spend their money anyway on worse things. so my people are never exploited because they never become poor by giving this money: they are enriched. Nowadays, ministers are not really using the money of their people. People are like sheep. If you don't cut their fur they go and rub off by rocks and trees, you know. So, you cut it first before they rub it off.
TITHING
You preach tithing pretty strongly do you?
We are tithe giving people in my church. All of them have got to pay tithes.
Do you have an offering on top of that?
Yes - offering on top of that.
What would the weekly income of the church be?
Generally, I say that we have about two million American dollars per year.
What is the average wage in S. Korea?
Around 650 dollars a year. As compared to Great Britain it is very low.
EXPANSION
How much did your present church cost?
Two million dollars. It was all paid for when it opened in 1973. Right now we have built other things. We have built this modern hotel which accommodates 350 people right by the church. This is not for business, but to invite ministers throughout the whole world to come to the church and stay at that hotel for 15 days while they study the church and receive impact. Then we can have workshop how to make a growing local church.
Do you have any other building projects underway?
Right now I am building a gymnasium which seats about 3,000 so that we can put the big canopies in, because right now we have 40,000. By next year we will have 50,000 members and so I need a place to accommodate them. During the week the young people can use this as a gymnasium, but on Sunday we can use it as a Church. And also we just opened our College in Pasadena…and so that is a great financial burden for us. And in America we have established 20 churches. We are really going to go into mission work in America.
PROVIDENCE
How do you feel when you consider the Providence of God: Here you were, laying dying, you were in spiritual ignorance, and now you are such a vast move of God. What are your personal feelings that God should have picked you?
Well, I feel this way. To some persons God has a special plan you know, like the Apostle Paul was in God's special plan. I think God specially raised me up to bring his healing mercies to my generation. But commonly, you know, God calls everybody to salvation, but I think that to the ministry God chooses. And I always say that to the ministry you should not volunteer. Many people volunteer to come to Bible School, but I say that is the reason you fail in your ministry because God doesn't accept volunteers; God chooses. So I was drafted by God to carry out this ministry.
But do you feel very moved when you consider the fact that for some God has just chosen you?
Yes - it is according to His Sovereign Will - I can't understand. But I just know this one thing, that I was drafted by Him. So I shall ask the question when I go to heaven.
If you had just one message to give to the church - the Christians in Great Britain - what would that be?
Be filled with the Holy Spirit. Depend more upon the Holy Spirit, because theology or institution or organisation never bring the results - it is the Power of the Holy Spirit.
ADVICE TO YOUNG MINISTERS
BY YONGGI CHO
I would say three things to a young man just finding his way in the ministry:
(1) I would ask him just to trust the Lord for everything as his resources. Because if he starts seeing the Mission Board or the Headquarters in some other church, then surely he would fail. For more than one year I had almost nothing to eat, but I learned through that way how to trust the Lord. So, the young men should be trained to only look to God: make God the absolute resources of his spiritual need as well as material. It is the secret of success.
(2) The young preacher should learn to "pay” for success, because many people of the young generation they just want to find the easier way - they want to go to the established churches with good salary, and how much salary are you going to give me, and so forth and so forth. But I just want them to "pay" to receive the blessings. And they should go and start a pioneer work and "pay" the price.
(3) I think that young people should learn to expect miracles from the Lord, because Christianity is a religion of the miraculous. If we can't expect miracles, then we can't really break through this established society. One should constantly expect a miracle. Every day I am expecting a miracle.